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The Holocaust – We Must Remember – Dr. Charles Sydnor -Soldiers of Destruction

Holocaust -Sydnor-Soldiers of Destruction


30-Hour Series of Interviews broadcast on the Roger Fredinburg Radio Program

12-03-1997 Fifth Program in Series

Guest:   Dr. Charles W. Sydnor, Jr.



In this show Roger Fredinburg interviews Dr. Charles Sydnor on the topic: Soldiers of Destruction – SS Death Head Division.

ISBN-10: 0691008531 and ISBN-13: 978-0691008530

Roger:     Welcome to the program, ladies and gentlemen! I am Roger Fredinburg, radio’s regular guy. Our presentation tonight is Part 5 of our ongoing series, The Holocaust: We Must Remember. I once again want to thank Chey Simonton and Kelleigh Nelson for all their help in putting together this incredible array of guests we’re having during this series. It’s just unbelievable, a mind-boggling group of folks who have incredible stories to tell us! So far, it’s been very fascinating! I’m really enjoying it and I hope you are too.

Tonight we speak with a gentleman who has spent a lifetime really dedicated to service to his community and to bringing forth educational principles that will forever endure and help Americans and other learn the lessons of the past. He’s been assigned and appointed to numbers of boards and commissions, had numerous appointments, was a college professor, was the President of Emory and Henry College from 1984 to 1991, was assistant to the Governor of Virginia and has had a remarkable career in television documentaries and radio. He’s certainly no stranger to the medium. We’d like to welcome Dr.Charles Sydnor to the program this evening. We’re going to talk about his book, “Soldiers of Destruction: SS Death’s Head Division.”   It has been continuously in print for 20 years now. Dr. Sydnor, welcome to the show!

Dr. Sydnor: Roger, thank you! It’s an honor to be with you!

Roger:   It’s a real pleasure to have you here. I know I didn’t do you any justice with your biography; but, it’s so incredible, I didn’t know where to begin!

Dr. Sydnor:  Well, thank you. I heard what you said and that’s just fine! I have probably changed careers, I think nine times now, more than the average person my age. I’m in my mid-50s.   Through all of this; as a college professor, as a college administrator, a gubernatorial assistant, a college president, and now a general manager in a public broadcasting operation,the continuous thread that runs through all of this has been my training as a professional historian. I was trained in modern German history at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, TN, completed my graduate education at the University of Friburg in the Federal Republic of Germany in the late 1960s. While I completed my graduate education, I spent a year and a half in the archives of the West German National Archive system doing research in the original records of the SS. I worked in the Himmler files; the surviving records of Himmler’s office that are deposited in the West German National Archives in Coblenz, the records of the Waffen SS which are deposited at Friburg, the records of the concentration camp expectorate, part of those records are in Munich at the Institute for History and the rest of them are up in Coblenz, and on and off, about four different times over a period of about four months, in the Berlin Document Center which houses all of the surviving personnel records of the SS Officer Corps.

Over that period of time, from 1968 to 1976, I put together the research that became the book, “Soldiers of Destruction,” which Princeton University Press first published in 1977. It’s a history of one of the original three Waffen SS Divisions; the SS Totenkopf or Death’s Head Division, that was created in the fall of 1939 from three regiments of SS guards from the concentration camps in Germany. The man who was the first commander of the SS Death’s Head Division, Theodor Eicke, is one of the still unknown, or less well known, major perpetrators of the holocaust. It was Eicke who built the concentration camp system, trained the men who administered it and instilled in the SS camp guards, in the period before the Second World War, the ethos of brutality and harshness that became the basis on which the extermination of the European Jews in Auschwitz and other concentration camps was carried out.

Roger:  Maybe you can help us out here because we hear a lot of definitions and things regarding the Nazis; but, I’d like you to explain what the SA was, what the SS was? What were the different branches of Hitler’s army?

Dr. Sydnor:  Neither the SA or the SS were part of the German Army. The apologists for the SS after WW II claimed the SS was simply another military branch of the German Armed Forces which was not the case! The SS was an affiliate and an agency of the Nazi Party. Briefly, the distinction between the SA and the SS is this: the SA was the original brown-shirted storm trooper Nazi Party army created in the 1920s that were used to demonstrate in the streets of Germany the Nazi political muscle. Most of the political parties in Germany in the 1920s had paramilitary formations; that was an outward visible sign of the political strength and might, was the nature and discipline and size of your paramilitary unit. The SA was the Nazi Party’s paramilitary unit.

The SS was created in 1925, originally as a very small group of men who were very highly trained and disciplined and served their original purpose performing security duty as Hitler’s personal body guards. That group of men, from the outset, were very elite. In 1929 a young man named Heinrich Himmler, who had joined the Nazi party in 1922, had been a member of the SA and at one time was secretary to Gregor Strasser, one of Hitler’s original confederates. Heinrich Himmler became the chief of the SS, which was still a very small unit within the SA. It was part of the SA. It remained part of the SA until after Hitler came to ower in 1933.

By the time Hitler came to power in 1933 the SA brown-shirt, storm trooper army had grown to nearly 4,000,000 men. The rapid growth of the SA caused disciplinary problems. There was a sort of breakdown of Hitler’s authority and control over it . The leader of the SA, a man named Ernst Rohm, wanted the brown-shirted army to become the new army of Nazi Germany, the political Nazi army of Nazi Germany. The old traditional officer corps and the military establishment in Germany which had survived after WW I did not want this radical mob of undisciplined bullies to take over the military functions of the state. In 1934 the leading figures in the military basically gave Hitler a choice. He had been in power about a year and a half. He was trying to consolidate a totalitarian system with an internal political and repressive apparatus that would do away with other political parties, control the press, media, universities, schools, etc. He needed the military establishment for his long-range goals of re-armament and eventually making war. A brown-shirted army of storm troopers was not in any way qualified for that mission.

The leaders of the military establishment said, ‘look, you’ve got a choice. You can either deal with Rohm and the SA and bring the SA under control andr get rid of Rohm or we’ll take matters into our own hands.” Hitler needed the military so he arranged, with the assistance of Herman Goring who at that time was probably Hitler’s closest palladin, and the two principal figures in the SS, Heinrich Himmler and Reinhardt Heydrich, Hitler arranged to have Rohm and the leadership of the SA murdered. This is the notorious Night of the Long Knives, June 30, 1934. Basically, they decapitated the SA! They murdered all the leading figures in the SA with Hitler’s blessing and on his orders. Subsequent to that, Hitler issued a decree that separated the SS completely from the SA and the SS became a separate and distinct institution.

At that time, Hitler had also sanctioned the beginning of a process by which Himmler was taking control of the police forces in Germany. Between the Night of the Long Knives at the end of June, 1934 and the middle of June, 1936, Heinrich Himmler and Rinehardt Heydrich consolidated control over all the police forces in the German states and basically merged the police forces of the country with the SS as a Nazi Party institution.


Heinrich Himmler


Reinhardt Heydrich

Roger: Oh, boy!

Dr. Sydnor:   In June of 1936, Germany had for the first time what it had never had in it’s history, it had a National Chief of Police. The German system at that time was a federal system like ours witch police powers reserved to the states. The police forces were regional and localized police forces; in states, communities and counties, like here in the United States. Himmler consolidated police power at the national level in June of 1936 under himself as the chief of the German police in his capacity as Reichleader of the SS. From 1936 on, the police forces in Germany worked outside the normal standards of law.

At the same time, one of the other principal figures involved in the decapitation of the SA in June, 1934 was this man, Theodor Eicke. Eicke, in 1933, had been appointed as second commandant of a detention complex that had been hastily erected outside Munich at a little town called Dachau. Himmler had a great deal of confidence in Eicke’s organizational ability. He had a nasty, mean, brutal streak; he was just the kind of man to organize a permanent detention center or concentration camp for political prisoners in Bavaria. By June, 1934 Eicke had made Dachau into what quickly became known as a model concentration camp. It was Eicke, acting on Himmler’s orders with Hitler’s blessing, who actually shot Ernst Rohm to death in his cell behind Stadelheim Prison in Munich. As a reward for murdering Rohm, and because of his achievements at Dachau, in July of 1934 Himmler appointed Eicke to the new post of Inspector General of Concentration Camps and ordered him to create a permanent system of large concentration camps staffed and guarded by SS soldiers who would be trained by Eicke. The system that emerged by 1938 was based on four and then five large concentration camps; Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald- the nortorious camp near Weimar, Ravensbruck — that became the concentration camp for women.   After the Anschluss which was the incorporation of Austria in March of 1938, the Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp near Linz, Austria.

Theodor Eicke

Theodor Eicke

It is noteworthy that four or five of the most notorious mass murderers of the SS, people associated in the minds of victims, survivors, students and historians, as principal SS perpetrators, served in the SS concentration camps at one time or another and were protegees of Theodor Eicke. They were trained by him! They were taught the business of brutality and mass murder by Theodor Eicke. They included:

Adolf Eichmann who served as a guard at Dachau in 1934;

  1. Rudolf Hoss, the later commandant of the Auschwitz extermination complex who served at Dachau and also at Oranienburg under Eicke,
  2. Odilo Globocnik, the SS General who ended up as the central figure in Operation Reinhardt (the code name for the extemination of the Jews of Poland). Globocnik had served briefly as a guard in a concentration camp unit.
  3. Paul Werner Hoppe (sp?) who became the commandant of the Stutthof concentration camp near Danzig in Poland, was a protegee of Eicke.
  4. Karl Otto Koch, the commandant of Buchenwald.
  5. Anton Kaindl was commandant of the Sachsenhausen
  6. Friedrich “Fritz” Hartjenstein, also a camp commandant at Auschwitz/Birkenau and later at the Natzweiler concentration camp.


The generation of hand-on camp administrators, perpetrators, murderers were the protegees of Theodor Eicke and their experience in the SS all went back to the early history of the concentration camp system in the 1930s, from 1933 on.

Roger: So, when these initial concentration camps were established, what was the objective?

Dr. Sydnor: The objective was two-fold. Hitler’s objective, which Himmler and Heydrich understood from the first, was to create a detention center, a prison (which they preferred to call a concentration camp) into which they could throw anybody who potentially was any kind of threat to the Nazi Party or Hitler’s regime, or anybody who might conceivably challenge the new Nazi state in any way. That included people who were Communists, Socialists, members of the Catholic Center Party, Democrats, Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Nazis had a particular distaste and dislike for Jehovah’s Witnesses because they refused to recognize the secular authority of the state and the Nazis believed they were particularly seditious, Catholics, Protestant clergymen and, of course, Jews in larger and larger numbers.

In Germany in the 1930s a concentration camp was not a prison that was under the control of the Ministry of the Interior or a state agency like the Dept. of Corrections here in Virginia. The concentration camps were under the jurisdiction and command authority of the Inspector of Concentration Camps who was a senior officer in the SS. So, the concentration camps existed outside the normal confines of authority and accountability to any state agency.

Roger:   Now prior to this…..

Dr. Sydnor:  …There’s another essential thing that needs to be explained. 

Roger:    Go ahead!

Dr. Sydnor:    In 1933 the Nazis very quickly developed a special kind of arrest procedure that was illegal. They used that special arrest procedure on people they specifically wanted to throw into concentration camps. That procedure was called “Protective Custody” or “Protective Detention”. The Gestapo, the secret state police, came into existence at the same time. It was also an agency of the SS after 1936. The Gestapo issued the protective custody warrants. If you got picked up on a protective custody warrant, you were hauled into the police station, fingerprinted and shipped off immediately to a concentration camp and held there indefinitely. You had no right to make a phone call, no right to summon a lawyer, no right to an appearance in court! You could be held, originally for 30 days, subsequently for 60 days and then 90 days. After the war broke out, if you were in concentration camp you could be held indefinitely. Only the Gestapo decided whether you got out, or when you got out. So, everything involved, using the camps as instruments of terror, was based on the procedures that were outside the normal laws, the checks and balances of a legal system in a civilized state.

Roger:   Now, before Hitler, there was the Weimar Republic. It was a republic, just like the Republic of the United States of America?

Dr. Sydnor:    It was a federalized system in which the national government and the individual state governments of Germany shared powers. The federalized system that existed in the Weimar years was an outgrowth of the merged state system of the German Empire between 1871 and 1918. Germany was a collection of individual states; Prussia, Schleswig-Holstein, Hanover, Wurtemburg, Baden, Bavaria, Saxony and a whole collection of smaller states.

Roger: Hold it right there. We’ve got to take a quick break. We’ll come back and develop this whole evolution of the Waffen SS group that you’ve studied. Ladies and gentlemen, our guest this evening is Dr. Charles Sydnor. His book is “Soldiers of Destruction.”   He follows the evolution of one of these groups right through to the bitter end, so to speak. Fascinating reading! Fascinating book! Our phone lines will not be open until we get a little deeper into the discussion.


Roger:    Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen! Dr. Charles Sydnor is our guest this evening. We’re discussing his incredible book. Charlie, are you with us, my friend?

Dr. Sydnor:  Yes, sir! I’m right here.

Roger:   I want to develop this story a little bit. First of all, on the front of your book it says, “the SS Death’s Head Division.” What does that mean?

Dr. Sydnor:  “Death’s Head” in German is “Totenkopf.” The Death’s Head is the “skull and crossbones” symbol that is on the bill of the peaked cap worn by the officers, it’s the little silver symbol in front of the cap. The Death’s Head units that guarded the pre-war concentration camp had the Death’s Head emblem on the right collar tab of their tunics. After the three SS units were formed into the Death’s Head Division and trained for combat in 1939, it became the name of the Waffen SS Death’s Head Division. The German name is the SS Totenkopf Division.

WaffenSS_police_ghettoWaffen SS outside Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

Roger:  Let me see if I’ve got this format understood. This would be like a charismatic Democrat or Republican or Libertarian leader coming into power by way of building a giant paramilitary group. It would be like Bob Dole had his army and Bill Clinton had his army. If Bob Dole had a bigger army then he’d be president, right?

Dr. Sydnor:   That’s partially correct as an analogy.   In the Weimar period, all political parties had paramilitary groups, even the Social Democratic Party had a paramilitary group, a marching army.   Germany was a country that placed deep faith in the traditional military values. It was a country that had millions of men who served in the ranks of the army or navy in the First World War. It was a country full of demobilized veterans. Using paramilitary groups was one way to flex political muscle. Once Hitler was in power, the militarized SS who were heavily armed and trained became the political shock troops. The SS Death’s Head Units, between 1934 to 1939 guarded and administered the concentration camps, into which all the political and ideological enemies of the regime were thrown, the people who were rounded up and arrested by the Gestapo. And their numbers grew as the years went by. There were also a couple of regiments of SS recruits that were trained as Special Service troops. They were to be used if there was an attempted coup or a domestic insurrection. They could be deployed to defend the regime.

There was another special militarized SS group that was Hitler’s bodyguard. It achieved regimental strength by the beginning of the war. It was called the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler that translates to the Lifeguard of Adolf Hitler.

You take these three groups; the SS Death’s Head units that guard the pre-war concentration camps, the Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler which was his big praetorian guard and the SS Special Service troops and after the Germans defeated Poland in 1939, units from these three groups were organized into field divisions and became the nucleus and origins of the Waffen SS or the wartime SS. Throughout the Second World War, from 1939 on, SS concentration camp guards remained part of the Waffen SS. The SS grew into a huge, enormous conglomeration of agencies, institutions and men.

Roger:   This Totenkopf, am I’ saying that correctly?

Dr. Sydnor: Totenkopf or Death’s Head Division.

Roger:    This group that you followed, what is their legacy?

Dr. Sydnor:   Their legacy is a vast swamp of destruction everywhere they went. They were fanatically devoted Nazis. They were thoroughly indoctrinated ideologically. Theodor Eicke set the stamp of his personality upon the character of that division. He was a fanatically driven man. He was an absolute racist, a complete Nazi fanatic! He insisted that his men be like him and he drove himself as hard as he drove his men. He inspired tremendous devotion and loyalty from the SS soldiers who served under him, both in the concentration camps before 1939 and in the Death’s Head Division after 1939. He was not an educated man who possessed any great military skill. The SS hallmark was to simply attack and assault the enemy with the greatest vigor possible; never mind the casualties, take the objective whatever it is and expect to take heavy losses!

The Death’s Head/Totenkopf Division was first deployed in combat as a Division in the Battle of France in 1940. It distinguished itself in France, not militarily; but, for two of the most notorious early atrocities committed by German units.   In late May of 1940 a unit of the Death’s Head Division murdered 100 British prisoners of war near a little village in Flanders called Le Paradis. Three weeks later in southern France, units of the SS Division systematically murdered Senegalese and Moroccan French troops, black soldiers serving in the French army. If they attempted to surrender to units of the SS Death’s Head Division, they were simply shot! The Division’s great fame came a year later when it fought in the assault of the Soviet Union. The Death’s Head Division fought exclusively in Russia from June, 1941 until the collapse of the Third Reich in April, 1945.
Roger:  So, all the while, not only are they out on the battlefield; but, they’re back home running the concentration camps?

Dr. Sydnor:  It’s interesting the way the system worked. The reserve and replacement units, their rear echelon units, continued to serve as guard units in the concentration camps. Men would be recruited to serve in a Death’s Head formation in, let’s say, the Buchenwald concentration camp.   They would get military training at Buchenwald; learn how to guard prisoners and basic military tactics, how to handle weapons, how to march, learn the basics of military service. They’d serve in Buchenwald for several months, then be rotated out of Buchenwald if they were physically fit enough for combat duty, and sent to someplace in Poland.

Roger: We’ve got to take a quick break here! Ladies and Gentlemen, we’re talking to our guest, Dr. Charles Sydnor, about his book, “Soldiers of Destruction.” We’ll be right back! Don’t go away!


Roger:  Charlie, we’re back! You were telling us they had a pretty good system for training and replenishing these SS guys?

Dr. Sydnor: Yes, sir! The guard units in the concentration camps served as a manpower pool, a replacement pool for the SS Death’s Head Division during the war. SS men came from other types of SS units; but, a number of them came from the concentration camp guard formations thoughout the war. In addition, the flow of personnel worked the other way, too. Officers and men in the Death’s Head Division who were wounded in combat or for some other reason became physically unfit to continue with the rigors of front line combat, were transferred back to rear area SS units. Most of those men ended up going back to the concentration camps because their experience in concentration camps was badly needed. The two most notable instances in this regard were Paul Werner Hoppe, Theodor Eicke’s adjutant in the SS Division. Hoppe was wounded in northern Russia in 1942. He had served as Eicke’s adjutant when Eicke was the Inspector General of the concentration camps. Hoppe was transferred to Auschwitz as commander of the guard company. After several months at Auschwitz, he was promoted to the position of Commandant of the Stutthof concentration camp near Danzig. He served for the rest of the war as commandant of that concentration camp.

Friedrich Hartjenstein who was a battalion commander in the Death’s Head Division in Russia was relieved for incompetence as a battalion commander and transferred to Auschwitz and was, for a time, the commandant of the Birkenau death camp in the Auschwitz complex. In 1944 he was tranferred from Birkenau to France and became the commandant of the Natzweiler concentration camp. There was a constant movement of personnel back and forth between the division, the concentration camps and the death camps during the Second World War.

Roger:  The thing that has always bothered me, and I think it bothers a lot of folks,s how it would be possible…. you talked a bit ago about these troops killing the Moroccan black soldiers when they were surrendering….. they were brutal killers! How do you get people to think like that?

Dr. Sydnor:   It was easier to train men like that in the Death’s Head Division than anywhere else except the Einsatzgruppen, the special SS mobile killing commandos that operated in Czechoslovakia in 1938, in Poland in 1939 and in the Soviet Union in 1941 and 1942. It involved harsh discipline, a rigid code of conduct and ideological indoctrination. It involved exposing men to concentration camp inmates who were ragged, hungry, filthy, who looked the part of the sub-humanity that the Nazi ideology portrayed them to be.   The ethos in the SS was that an “enemy behind the wire”, that’s a literal term that Eicke used with his concentration camp guards. Prisoners were enemies who just as potentially lethal and dangerous and insidious as any other enemy; racial, political or ideological, only they happened to be “behind the wire”.   They had to be guarded very closely and carefully. They must not be shown any pity, any mercy. They had to be given no quarter. The regulations for punishing prisoners were totally within the authority of the concentration camp commandant. The commandant of a concentration camp could sentence a prisoner to death for an infraction of camp rules! That prisoner had no appeal, no recourse! There was no way any outside judicial authority could intervene in the camp. Once you were in a concentration camp, you were totally in the mercy of the SS Guards. The SS guards, basically, showed no mercy!

It’s very easy once you have trained, hundreds of men, thousands of men, to think this way about enemies of the state who were in concentration camps…it is then very easy to convince them with ideological training that when they’re in a combat division facing an enemy across the front line is the same type of racial sub-human, the same type of human garbage, he’s more dangerous now because he’s not locked up behind the wire and he’s got a gun in his hand! So, the object in war, the object for the men in the SS Death’s Head Division was not to defeat the enemy’s army, not to capture his military leaders, it was simply to destroy the enemy, to kill as many of them as possible!

Roger:   Wow! We’ve got to take a news break. We’ll come back and talk about how this turned into an extermination experiment. Ladies and gentlemen, our guest this evening is Dr. Charles W. Sydnor, Jr. His book is “Soldiers of Destruction: the SS Death’s Head Division 1933-1945″     We’ll be right back!


Roger:   Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to our 2nd hour of the program. I am Roger Fredinburg, radio’s regular guy. Nice to have you aboard. Our guest this evening in our continuing series, The Holocaust: We Must Remember is Dr. Charles W. Sydnor, Jr. His book is “Soldiers of Destruction: the SS Death’s Head Division, 1933-1945.”

We have a pretty good foundation laid, Charlie. I want to go back to something you said on the first hour of the broadcast. You talked about people being perceived as sub-human. You described them as ragged, tattered, filthy people. You mentioned indoctrination, the discipline and rigid training, all of those things that went into making these “killing machines” that were human robots, for lack of a better definition.

I know you were an expert witness for the Justice Department on a number of court cases. It never seems to be properly addressed as to how the human mind is altered in such a way that it could commit the evil we witnessed in Hitler’s Germany. I’m trying to figure out what people need to be aware of so that can never happen to them!

Dr. Sydnor:  I’m not sure we can really fathom that. I’m not sure that is a question that is susceptible to a clear and distinctive answer. Clearly, different things motivate different people to do murder. In the SS, years of racist education in Nazi schools with Nazi teachers using books that contained pornographic, stereotypical cartoons depicting Jews and other undesirable people (particularly gypsies) was followed by years of indoctrination in the SS. Having grown up and been surrounded by a massive state system, it gave the veneer of legality to what was going on. At some point, nearly everybody in that system crossed the line. The people who were in the SS were there because they wanted to be in the SS! They volunteered for the SS! It was the elite of the National Socialist Order! It was to be the cadre of the future of the Thousand Year Reich in Europe once Hitler won the war, defeated Russia and established a new Nazi millenium!

I’m not sure that the question is susceptible to an answer because that indecision lies at the heart of why it is so important to remember what happened. Not only to remember it generally; but, to remember it factually, to remember it specifically, to remember it accurately, not to enlarge it in some way or embellish it or embrace it!   Heaven knows, it’s horrible enough in the dimensions that it actually took place in! In my estimation as an historian, it’s precisely because we don’t know the answer to that question, that we have to remember.

Roger:   As an historian, you clearly are well aware of the old adage that if you don’t learn from history, it will repeat itself!

Dr. Sydnor:  That’s George Santayana! That has been recycled so much that most of the tread’s off of it!

Roger:   Ha, ha, ha!

Dr. Sydnor:   Just because something is a cliche doesn’t mean it is not true! And that, of course, is very true! Many of us who are trained historians come to a point in our careers where we’re really not certain that people in government are capable of learning anything from history, or very much from history!

Roger: What I want, by the end of this series, is for people to look around and see the signs of indoctrination, of propaganda. What do the average citizens of the world look for? What are the signs that tells us we’re headed down a bad chunk of road?

Dr. Sydnor:  I think the clearest sign, the most unmistakable marker and the sharpest and shrillest warning is any situation in which people attempt to organize hatred into a political program; or any cause, or group, or association seeks to justify it’s own existence or perpetuate an agenda or develop and manifest a program based upon the presumed demonization or anathemetization of other peoples, individuals or groups. Whatever their motives and public manifestations, if hatred and prejudice and presumed projection of inferiority and intolerance of other human beings is the statement of their programs, that’s the first warning sign.

Roger:   How about the KKK?

Dr. Sydnor:   It’s interesting that after George Lincoln Rockwell was killed in 1957, the Klan and the American Nazi Party basically merged.   The staple of the two programs really merged and the American Nazi Party lost its distinct identity after Rockwell’s death.   The hangers-on in that movement, many of them ended up in the Klan.

Roger:   How about the Nation of Islam?

Dr. Sydnor:   It’s the same principle on the other side of the coin.   Farrahkan is a little more difficult to typecast than Elijah Mohammed was a generation ago because he moved in a different direction. I’m not sure that’s any more convincing than David Dukes efforts were in Louisiana to portray himself as a kind mainstream American political conservative when his background had been in the American Nazi Party, the Klan and the White Citizens Councils in Louisiana.

I think the proposition boils down to this; in every society there are potential Hitlers, in every generation there are potential Hitlers. What keeps those people on the fringe, under the mattress of acceptable society, are conditions of relative normality. Bear in mind what happened in Germany in the 1920s and into the early 1930s, there was a remarkably unique conglomeration or collection of historical circumstances. If Germany had not gone through the trauma of defeat in the First World War, the French occupation, the inflation of the 1923, the huge upheaval of the Great Depression where there was no social security net, when one tird of the country was unemployed and had no welfare, unemployment benefits, etc., those sorts of conditions radicalized an entire population into accepting Hitler as a legitimate politician. The closer a society comes to conditions like that, the graver the danger is that lunatic fringe people will be looked upon as credible, as people who have something legitimate to offer in a political program.

Roger: So, bad times seem to precipitate these events. Hard times…. people in despair!

Dr. Sydnor:   There are historians who point out Hitler’s popularity really peaked after the Great Depression had begun to ease somewhat in Germany.   The Nazi Party politically became popular before the worst part of the Great Depression hit Germany in 1930. The Wall Street crash in 1929 precipitated a chain reaction causing world economies to collapse. Germany fell like a domino about 19 months after the Wall Street crash. Hard times, unusual circumstances, economic and social turbulence and upheaval and chaos, are the stuff these types of movements, or “would be” Hitlers feed upon because they are circumstances ideally suited to getting across a message based on hate.

Roger: Capitalize on the anger, I suppose. Taking that into account, you and I spoke the other day about a project you are working on, the National Smokers Alliance. I had jokingly said to you that it was kind of fascist! There are people out there demonizing folks who smoke! If we see that if the dominant media culture doesn’t like somebody, they begin to “demonize”! I began to equate that with some of the techniques used by Josef Goebbels!

Dr. Sydnor:  I don’t think the American media has been as focused as Goebbels was; but, the National Smokers Alliance with 4 million members in the association, it’s a group with one very simple objective; to promote accommodation and toleration of people who, as adults, choose to smoke. The Smokers Alliance is not interested in promoting the tobacco industry. It doesn’t want kids smoking; but, if adults make a decision to smoke, the Alliance feels they ought to have that right and ought not to be subjected to discriminatory regulations and ordinances that prevent them from doing that. 20% of the people who belong to the NSA are non-smokers!

Roger: It’s a freedom issue! The thing that concerns me, the smoking is one of those issues you’re “for” or “against”; but, it’s the way they demonize people for something they do or something they believe in. That bothers me! That seems like the same propaganda tools we want to avoid!

Dr. Sydnor:    Yes!   There’s nothing to be gained for the stability of a free society in demonizing or anathematizing anybody! In recent statewide elections here in Virginia, I went to help a friend who was up for re-election to the House of Delegates. At a polling place a man who voted for his opponent really got in my face. He was consumed with anger and became irrational, spitting out this stream of invective, accusing my friend of being dishonest, saying he was guilty of everything except commiting unnatural acts with barnyard animals! My response was, you don’t need to be this way. You don’t have to demonize somebody to vote against them. All you have to do is disagree with them to vote against them. It’s not necessary to work yourself up into such a state.

Roger:  I just worry about the whole sentimentality that sourrounds this concept that seems to be growing in this country. I’d like to see it stopped!

Charlie, are you ready to take some phone calls? Folks, the phone lines are open. We’re talking with Dr. Charles Sydnor about his fascinating book,, “Soldiers of Destruction: the SS Death’s Division – 1933 to 1945” If you really want to know how the SS got to be what they became, how bad and nasty they really were, you’ll find it in this book! You can order the book from Princeton Publishing at 1-800-777-4726.

Alright! We’re going to Brian out in Springfield, Illinois! Hello, Brian!

Caller-Brian: I heard that were French, Dutch, Danes, Norwegians and even some Russians that served in the SS.

Dr. Sydnor:  That’s absolutely correct. In fact, there was a Flemish legion in the Waffen SS led by a Belgian collaborator by the name of Leon Degrelle. There was Dutch SS unit, there were Norwegians and even some Swedish volunteers in the Waffen SS also. There was even a Moslem SS created in 1943 in the Balkans. There were Russians who served in the Waffen SS. There was a Ukranian, Latvian and Estonian legion created late in the war. By 1945 the Waffen SS was really a kind of multi-national fighting force.

Caller-Brian:  I’ll bet a lot of those SS men smoked cigarettes!

Roger:   Ha, ha, ha! Brian, thank you very much!

Dr. Sydnor:  Himmler was a cigar smoker. Ha, ha!

Roger: Matt in Eugene, Oregon, how are you?

Caller-Matt:   Fine, Roger! Thanks for taking my call. Dr. Sydnor, it’s a great show!

Dr. Sydnor: Thank you.

Caller-Matt: I couldn’t help but call. I was listening to you talk about the Jews and how Hitler and his buddies had to first make this group of people somehow non-human and not entitled to the protection of the state. We hear over and over, again and again, that we need to keep this from happening again. Do you see any group of people in our culture that have lost the protection of the state?

Dr. Sydnor:  Any group in our culture? None that I’m really familiar with.

Caller-Matt:   Not even the unborn?

Dr. Sydnor:  I guess you could make that argument.

Caller-Matt:  Do you agree or disagree? That’s a whole group of people that have lost their “human-ness”! They’re no longer human, they are blobs of tissue that no longer have the right to life! You have to first dehumanize them, of course! We’re doing that now! I agree with you! It was hideous what happened! But, we’re still doing it and we’re still blind to it, like we were then! We’re still blind!

Dr. Sydnor:   If you’re asking if I believe in abortion, the answer is NO, I do not believe in it!

Caller-Matt:   Okay.

Roger:   Alright, Matt, I don’t want to turn this into an “abortion show”, folks, please! We’re talking about the Nazi SS here. We’ve got John on the line. He’s calling from Santa Rosa, California.

Caller-John: Good evening! I’d like to ask Dr. Sydnor, do these former SS officers and enlisted men get together like American veterans do? That seems pretty disturbing if they do!

Dr. Sydnor:  Yes, they do. John, it’s a very interesting question! That has been a very controversial subject in Germany over the years. In fact, there have been reunions of veterans of the SS Death’s Head Division. It got to the point that the German press was very interested in this about ten years ago, so they began organizing these reunions under pseudonyms like the “Westphalian Hunting Club” or the “Sons of the Order of the Nibelungen” or something like that. They do get together from time to time.

Caller-John:   Were any of the Waffen SS officers allowed to go into the West German Wermacht or whatever they called it after the war?

Dr. Sydnor: The Bundeswehr?

Caller-John:   Whatever they called it.

Dr. Sydnor:    No, not immediately.

Caller-John:  Adolf Gehlen (sp?) was an Ace, was allowed to go back in to the Luftwaffe. I was wondering….?

Dr. Sydnor:  Not that I know of. The Germans were pretty careful in the immediate post-war years. In the face of a pretty well organized and highly financed campaign by Waffen SS veterans to rehabilitate the image of the Waffen SS, to create a kind of mythology about it…. of course, there were a lot of SS veterans after the war, a lot who survived the war. They became integrated into German society. Many of them emerged as prominent business figures in teh 1960s when they were in their 50s, into the 1970s when they were in their 60s.   They had a lot of political clout and and lot of political influence. They lobbied the West German parliament to restore benefits and to award pensions. It started out with enlisted men who served in the Waffen SS who became eligible for pensions, then NCOs and junior grade officers, then middle grade officers. Finally in the 1970s, they lifted the restrictions altogether. By that time there were only a handful of surviving colonels and generals who had served in the Waffen SS who qualified for pensions.

Caller-John:   It’s kind of disturbing to me. I have nothing against the German Wermacht soldiers. They were just doing their duty. But, there’s something about the SS organization, a political organization. It was Hitler’s personal army, wasn’t it?

Dr. Sydnor:   Well, it was; but, the longer the war went on, the more blurred that distinction became. One of the previous callers a few minutes ago raised a question about the multi-national character of the SS, the Waffen SS anyway. Keep in mind, that closely related and directly affiliated with the Waffen SS were the SS and police agencies that ran the instruments of repression in the conquered countries and occupied territories of Nazi Europe in the Second World War.   The security police and the SD, armed SS units, were involved in the clearing of Jewish ghettos at Newvlene, Chestahova, Warsaw, Minsk, Bialystok. (all spelled phonetically) The SS was an all-purpose organization that was trained, equipped, ready, willing and able to serve the purposes of repression and persecution required them to do.

Roger: All right, Charles, we’ve got to take a break. Ladies and gentlemen, we’re following the evolution of one of these Waffen SS groups, the Totenkopf. What an incredible story is told in the book! We’ll get back to it on the other side of the break!


 Roger: Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen! Dr. Charles Sydnor’s our guest. “Soldiers of Destruction” is his book, an incredible story following the evolution of the Waffen SS!

All right, Charlie! We’re back! Let’s go to Mike in Tampa, Florida and then I have a quick question for you! Mike, hello!

Caller-Mike: Yes, sir! I’ve lived in Paris, France and I personally know a number of Frenchmen who were in the Charlemagne SS as volunteers for Adolf Hitler. Today, these older Frenchmen are writing books and being interviewed on French national radio. They are very proud that they volunteered to help Adolf Hitler to fight Communism. I assure you, if you know them the way I know them, and you listen to them, you will see the whole war very differently and that we Americans have been lied to by the television networks about current events ever since WW II. These men are very proud about what they did and they believe Hitler was doing the right thing in fighting communism. They say they would do it again! They’re very proud of what they did!

Roger:  Do you want to respond to that, Charles?

Dr. Sydnor: The Charlemagne Regiment in the Charlemagne Division was a unit of French SS Legionnaires that has less than an admirable record in the way they conducted themselves, particularly in the Battle of Berlin. That, in fact, was the unit that defended the government quarter of the city against the Red army in April, 1945. They didn’t exercise any particular care in who they killed. They killed a number of German civilians along with Russian soldiers.

France is still deeply troubled, and I think in some respects, still politically split by the lingering issues of whether one collaborated or whether one resisted. There are older men in France now, many of whom were never in the SS, who were collaborators or committed supporters of the Vichy French regime. They are not ashamed of their wartime service or what they did and make no apologies for it.

Roger: The question I had, because it was an obvious one when John called and asked about the SS getting together and having their reunions. How did those folks escape prosecution?

Dr. Sydnor:  The important point to make here is that everyone who served in the Waffen SS was not a war criminal. There were men who served in the Waffen SS who did not murder Jews, who did not shoot gypsies, who never worked in concentration camps. There were a lot of men in the Waffen SS who did. There were a lot of men in the Waffen SS who never shot civilians. or burned villages. or massacred groups of innocent civilians, or looted or plundered or did any of the other terrible things that some Waffen SS units did.   We can’t stigmatize the whole group of the whole institution. The SS itself, the entire organization, was condemned as a criminal organization by the Nuremburg Tribunal in 1946; but, I interviewed a number of men in Germany in 1969, 1972 and 1976 who were veterans of the Waffen SS. I interviewed a number of men who served in the SS Death’s Head Division. Two of the most interesting and upright people I ever met were Otto Baum and Karl Ulrich, both veterans of the SS Death’s Head Division. They were not war criminals.

The point to Roger’s question is that many of the individuals who were responsible for atrocities, commited crimes and were war criminals were never identified, or prosecuted or held accountable for what they did. They got away with it!

Roger: You were state’s witness for US vs. John Demjanjuk. Just two or three days ago, he asked for his US citizenship back. Do you have any reflection on that?

Dr. Sydnor: Yes! I have a very specific and vigorous reflection on that! First, I served as an affiant. I did an affidavit for the court in Cleveland, Ohio in the second Demjanjuk case which was a deportation proceeding. Mr. Demjanjuk was de-naturalized and ordered deported from the United States legally under the law; the Holtzman Amendment and the Supreme Court’s Federenco Judgement which holds that anyone who served as a concentration camp guard and engaged in the persecution of human beings on the basis of race, religion, national origin, social status or economic station was never eligible for citizenship in the United States.

What’s happened is Mr. Demjanjuk’s extradition was requested by the Israelis subsequent to the deportation hearing. The Israelis tried him solely on the charge that he was Ivan the Terrible who operated the gas chamber at Treblinka. Subsequent to his trial in Israel and the collapse of the Soviet Union, there were documentary records that became available; interrogation protocols that the Soviets had conducted after the war when they were looking for former Soviet citizens who had served as death camp guards. Ivan the Terrible was high on their Most Wanted List. There was conflicting testimony about who Ivan the Terrible was. The Israeli Supreme Court came to the conclusion that they could not execute a man based upon event the faint shadow of a doubt about his past identity. Given the specific charge on which he had been tried, they were forced to turn him loose. If Mr. Demjanjuk was not, in fact, Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka, he was Ivan, the slightly less terrible, of Sobibor because his identity card, which is an authentic document from the period verified by historians, handwriting experts,chemists, foresnic experts; his identity card as a Ukrainian Auxiliary serving as a Trawnicki guard places him in the Sobibor death camp.

Mr. Demjanjuk is not entitled to have his citizenship back! He should never have been let back in to the United States. He was allowed back into the United States because one of the appellate judges in the Sixth Court of Appeals saw fit to exercise judicial activism and take the law into his hands and let Mr. Demjanjuk back into the country! Mr. Demjanjuk is not entitled to have his citizenship back because, under American law, he was never entitled to it in the first place!

Roger:  Now, I was under the impression he was vindicated. You’re telling me he has not?

Dr. Sydnor:   He absolutely has not been vindicated! Absolutely not! This man was a death camp guard. He was a Ukrainian serving in the Red army who was captured by the Germans in 1942. The Germans trained him to be an SS auxiliary. They took him to a place in Poland called Trawnicki where they trained eastern European collaborators. He was trained, armed and deployed for the purpose of killing civilians, rounding up Jews and guarding camps. There is evidence now that after he served….. In point of fact, I myself believe that he was Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka!

Roger: Oh! Man!

Dr. Sydnor: The identity card places him in Sobibor. There’s evidence now that suggests that he was also a guard at the Flossenbürg concentration camp late in the war.

Roger:  We’ve got to take a quick break! We’ll go to calls right on the other side, folks!


Roger:   Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back! Dr. Charles Sydnor is with us. You can order his book “Soldiers of Destruction” from the publisher at 1-800-777-4726. Charlie, we’ve got more phone calls! Are you ready?

Dr. Sydnor: Yes, sir!

Roger:  Kelleigh in Tennessee, you’re on the radio!

Caller-Kelleigh:   Thank you, Roger! Dr. Sydnor, I wanted to mention two short questions. One, I have a difficulty in finding anything on the White Rose Society or the Odessa Files. Two, I recently watched a 3-hour program on Discovery Channel regarding the CIA that mentioned the CIA was responsible for bringing former Nazis to this country. I’m wondering how many, like Demjanjuk, sneaked in or were helped to get into this country? Perhaps that has something to do with the Odessa Files. I’m not sure because I have nothing on it. I’m interested in how many were brought over here because I know it is documented that a lot of them got into America.

Dr. Sydnor:  Let me answer your questions in the order you asked them.

First, there are two or three books that deal with the White Rose Society, the student anti-Nazi movement during the Second World War at the University of Munich; the movement around the brother and sister, Hans and Sophie Scholl. Let me suggest a book by Canadian scholar, Peter Hoffman. It’s called, “The History of the German Resistance.” The bibliography is excellent for a whole range of sources on the different resistance movements in Germany during the war. I cannot remember the author’s name, but there is a book written in English on the White Rose Society.

Secondly, the Odessa is largely a figment of post-war fictional imagination. The SS veterans organization in Germany, the Waffen SS veterans which, I presume, served for the book and movie called “The Odessa File” is called HIAG, a German term that means a self-help organization. That’s the acronym for the SS veterans organization.

Thirdly, most of the men who had been SS guards at concentration camps or SS policemen got into the country after the war by posing as displaced persons, or lying about, or concealing the material facts about what they had done during the Second World War. However, it is true that some got in with the active assistance, sponsorship or support of the Army Counter-Intelligence Corps after the Second World War, and perhaps with the CIA. With the CIA I can’t even give you an educated opinion because whatever records there may be are, to the best of my knowledge, not available. I would assume there is the basis for a correct assumption, that some of these people did get in that way.

What I think is even more reprehensible in this vein is the active assistance that counter-intelligence gave to people like Klaus Barbie. There’s no question they helped him evade identification and capture, helped him get out of Europe to Latin America! It was not until the Bolivian military government was overthrown and civilian rule was re-established in the early 1980s that Klaus Barbie was finally extradited back to France and stood trial.

Caller-Kelleigh:   Okay! Thanks!

Roger: Thanks, Kel!   Slim in Salem, Oregon, hello!

Caller-Slim:  Good program, Roger! Dr. Sydnor, I wonder if you could make a comment or two about the event that led up to all the events you’re talking about….maybe start with the Versailles Treaty and how the Federal Reserve banks, known over there as the central bank or the Riechsbank…

Dr. Sydnor: Yes, the German Reichsbank, that’s correct!

Caller-Slim:   Could you make a comment about their part in it and how they totally destroyed the economy and issued all those worthless marks?

Dr. Sydnor:  The real issue for the historian is the huge collection of blunders that were involved in ending the First World War and imposing an absolutely ruinous peace on the Germans. Some of the circumstances of the First World War made that understandable. The French wanted revenge, the British didn’t want the Germans to ever regain the type of military strength that would enable them to inflict that kind of destruction on the world again. In brief, the Treaty of Versailles and the conditions the Germans were forced to accept sowed the seeds for all of the later upheaval and chaos that developed.

The great inflation of 1923 which was the effort undertaken by the banking authority in Germany to deliberately inflate the currency in order to de-value what the Germans were having to pay the French and British in reparations for war damages was deliberately allowed to get out of control. As you know, the currency became virtually worthless in a matter of months. You could take a bushel basket of 100,000 reichmark notes into a butcher shop and buy a couple of pounds of sausage with it.

Roger: Dr. Sydnor, we’ve run out of time, my friend! I really appreciate your spending the evening with us tonight!

Dr. Sydnor:   Roger, it’s been an honor to be with you and your listeners, thanks!

Roger:   Thank you, sir, and God Bless!

(Transcription is from MP3 file converted from original cassette with minimal editing by Chey Simonton.

Errors, if any, may be due to unintelligible sections of original 1997 audio technology. Unknown/unintelligible words are spelled phonetically.)


The Holocaust – We Must Remember – James Pool: Hitler and His Secret Partners

 Holocaust Pool-Hiter & His Secret Partners


Here is a short clip from this amazing and informative interview:


30-Hour Series of Interviews broadcast on the Roger Fredinburg Radio Program

11-12-1007 Third Program in Series

Guest:   James E. Pool, Author

Hitler and His Secret Partners: Contributions, Loot and Rewards: 1933 to 1945

This is the first of two shows with James Pool. In these interviews Roger and Mr. Pool discuss Hitler and his secret partners 1933-1945. This is a 2 part interview.

ISBN-10: 0671760923 and ISBN-13: 978-0671760823

Roger:    Good evening, ladies and gentlemen! I’m Roger Fredinburg, radio’s regular guy! Nice to have you aboard! We’re continuing our series on The Holocaust: We Must Remember. Last week we had James Pool with us. We talked about Hitler’s early days, 1919 to 1933. His book is “Who Financed Hitler.”   We have James Pool back with us this week, a continuation, his second book “Hitler and His Secret Partners: Contributions, Loot and Rewards – 1933 to 1945.” We’ll pick up where we left off last week with Hitler in the midst of the Great Depression and rising to power where he eventually becomes chancellor of Germany, and beyond that to his fortunate end and demise. I’d like to welcome James Pool back. James, how are you?

James: Fine, Roger!

Roger:   Nice to have you back, my friend! Where we left off last week, we had a lot of very interesting calls after you were off the other day, this evening we’ll handle those questions. I didn’t want to get off the time frame last week. We did have some challenging calls last week after we let you go last time so we’ll take them now when you can answer for yourself, okay?

James:  Okay!

Roger:    We’ll have some fun with that! I think we left off when Hitler was miring around in the Depression and rebuilding the party. People were once again beginning to listen to him because the economy was bad and his message was resonating with the people.

James: Exactly! The Depression became so bad in Germany that one-third of the workforce was unemployed. Under those conditions, the Nazis started to win a tremendous number of popular votes and became the largest party in Germany. At that point, the conservative nationalists whose following was diminishing, decided that their only chance was to try to put together some kind of coalition with Hitler. In 1933 they formed a coalition government with Hitler. A lot of people don’t realize that when Hitler first came to power in the 1933 it was part of a coalition government in which the conservatives held all the powerful positions. They held the Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of Economics and the Foreign Ministry. They thought they had Hitler pretty well controlled! They thought they could use his as somebody to bring the mass following into their camp. On the other hand, Hitler was planning to take advantage of them; to work with them only as long as he needed them. So it was kind of a coalition of….

Roger: Well, we see that today in Israel, for example. Benjamin Netanyahu’s got to watch his     Ps & Qs because if he doesn’t meet the standards of certain groups he’s going to lose!

James: Yes. On the other hand, these were real crooks! They were really planning to take advantage of each other, and as we’ll see, murder each other if they had to!

At first Hitler behaved himself. In fact, there are photos in the book showing Hitler and Prince August Wilhelm, the son of the former Kaiser. Hitler and Goering, during this period, almost always had this Prince with them, because they were promising the old conservatives that they would bring the Kaiser back. Also from this period, if you see pictures of Hitler and President Hindenburg. Hindenburg was still president and actually held more power than Hitler did as chancellor.   When Hitler greets Hindenburg he bows so low it almost looks ridiculous! In fact, there’s a good story about that. Shortly after he became chancellor, at some sort of state function party, one of the royal family, Princess Louisa (who was known to be rather short, fat and ugly) was talking with Hitler. She wanted some refreshments so he bowed and went off to get her wine and refreshments. Of course, the gossip columnists really had a field day with this! They were saying the chancellor was behaving like a flunky because never before had the German Chancellor run off to get some princess’s refreshments!

hat kind of behavior continued for a while; at first trying to play un to the old conservative nationalists. However, these people, these conservative nationalists, had a lot of the same goals that he did! Even during this period while President Hindenburg was still alive, Hitler started the boycott against Jewish businesses. Basically, this was the first phase of the holocaust! Nazi goons would gather outside a Jewish business and keep customers from going in, unless they wanted to risk being beaten up by these Nazi bullies. The boycott didn’t work very well because soon after the Nazis started it, they began to get complaints some of Hitler’s own financiers. The bankers were worried that if the Jewish department stores didn’t do any business, the stores would go bankrupt and the bankers, some of the very people who helped finance Hitler, wouldn’t be able to collect on their loans!

Roger: The old Catch 22!

James: Exactly! It’s kind of funny! In fact, one of things Hitler wanted was to confiscate Jewish department stores!   The problem racists run into; and they don’t give much thought to this, is “what is a Jewish department store?” Is it Jewish if the owner and management are Jewish but the employees aren’t?   That was the case at many places in Germany. The employees, some of whom were Nazi party members, petitioned Hitler to keep the department store open because they’d be thrown out of work during the Depression! Some other department stores might have Jewish management but they were public companies with stockholders.   So it’s kind of amusing, some of the problems racists run into when they try some of the ridiculous stuff!

Roger:   Oh, the quagmires!   So, Hitler, as chancellor, had other clearly identifiable goals. At some point we head toward dictatorship. What were the steps that there?James:  Hitler began this re-armament, preparing to go to war. A few years into his regime, President Hindenburg died. Hindenburg had been the great field marshal of WWI. He was respected by all classes of the German people. When Hindenburg died, the industrialists, the army and the Nazis got together. There was some question over who would succeed him as chief of state; whether it would be the Kaiser’s son, Prince August Wilhelm, a general or Hitler. They decided on Hitler. That marks the beginning of Hitler’s dictatorship. But, a lot of power still remained with the partners! They still controlled the army. That was the deal Hitler cut with the army in order to be president, president and chancellor, that is in effect dictator. The deal was that he would not interfere in army affairs.

Roger: As Hitler gained that kind of power, you are obviously not going to stop him. In Chapter 3 of your book there’s a fascinating story about a power struggle between Hitler and his partners. I thought you might go into that story and talk about the extravagant party and what was going on there. It’s a really interesting story I’d like you to share with the audience.

James: Will you refresh my memory a little bit?

Roger: Where people were being killed, his own people, when he was a the big party.

James:  Yes! This is a situation; a man I had mentioned last week, who had really helped build the party up from the beginning, his name was Ernst Rohm. He was an army captain who was also gay. This was something Hitler seemed to tolerate very well. There were rumors they might even have had an affair at one time. I was not able to substantiate those rumors. Once Hitler became chancellor, he appointed Ernst Rohm as the leader of the Storm Troopers, the Brownshirts. They numbered about 500,000 men! Remember that at this time, the German army was restricted by treaty to be no larger than 100,000 men. So, here you had these Brownshirts whose number was five times the size of the regular army! They were really a potential threat and could have taken over the regular army!

There was a showdown between Hitler, the generals and the industrialists. The generals and industrialists said, ‘Get rid of Rohm!” Rohm was socialist leaning, primarily because all the Brownshirts were, basically, unemployed and they wanted to take over the factories. Hitler agreed to get rid of Rohm. That was called “The Blood Purge” in which he surprised Rohm and some of his lieutenants at a resort in Bavaria. Rohm was gay and some of his key lieutenants were gay. They found some of them in bed with young boys, some were in bed with each other. Hitler surprised them with his SS bodyguards, shot some of them on the spot and had the others brought back to Berlin in chains.

He couldn’t bring himself to give the orders to execute his friend, Rohm.   He had Rohm arrested at the resort and brought back to Berlin. Rohm is sitting in prison the day after his lieutenants had been shot. Hitler had a diplomatic reception; a fine party with waiters in white livery and gloves serving champagne on silver trays, and some observant reporters noticed that Hitler was very uneasy. Rumors had been going around that something was going on; but, none of this was in the media, that Hitler had conducted this purge the night before. But observant reporters notice Hitler was very edgy at this party. At one point a lady dropped a glass, and when the glass hit the floor and shattered, Hitler jumped! It was an instinctive reaction. Remember, Hitler was an infantryman in WWI and when he heard something that sounded like a shot, he reacted instinctively. During the party a messenger came in and gave a message to Hitler. He wrote a note back saying he’d finally made up his mind during the party to have his friend, Rohm, shot! He gave Rohm the opportunity to kill himself. Rohm said, ‘if Adolf wants me dead, let him come do it himself.”   Hitler wasn’t about to do that, so he gave the order to have Rohm shot. So while Hitler and the generals partied, Rohm and some of the very men who had worked with Hitler from the beginning, some of the most devoted Nazis, were stood up against the wall and shot at a military barracks a couple of miles away.

Roger :   This was all party of the underlying power struggle?

James: Exactly! You said that there are coalition governments and parliamentary democracies; but, not like this! In this, the various partners were planning each other’s executions!

Roger:     It was a matter of survival–kill or be killed! That’s the position they ended up in.

James:    And they were fighting over the loot!   Who was going to get control of all this?

Roger:    You say Hitler was given his orders. What was that?

James:   That was basically talking about the situation with Rohm and the Brownshirts who wanted to take over from the army. Before that purge, before Rohm was shot, Gustav Krupp, the great steel tycoon came to Berlin to talk to Hitler to complain. He said that the Brownshirts must go! Hitler still wavered because the Brownshirts were a tremendous paramilitary force, a militia.

Roger:   I watched a German propaganda film the other day. It took me through a bunch of marches and incredible crowds of people surrounding Hitler, the Hitler Youth, the tens of thousands of young kids; 13, 14, 15 years old! It just blew my mind, Jim!   We saw some of the grotesque Auschwitz kind of films in school; but, we didn’t see any of this propaganda stuff! Unbelievable numbers of young people who were loyal to Hitler! It was just amazing! They were a very dynamic group, scary people!

James:  In the book I have a photograph of Hitler standing with his hands on a little boy’s shoulders. The sort of satanic eyes, the mesmerism coming out of Hitler’s eyes!   The way he controlled the youth of Germany! In fact, he had a saying. He would say, “Whether you join us or not, I really don’t care. Your children are already our followers. We will control the next generation.” That militarism, that propaganda that was his greatest skill! Remember those torchlight rallies!

Roger:  Telling young boys, ‘you are the future of Germany— you are the German race—you are the best, the brightest, the strongest’ — YOU ARE THE CHOSEN FEW!

James:  What kid doesn’t want to play soldiers? A lot of kids fell for this. They got to handle a rifle so this had a great deal of appeal. Hitler Youth was a big factor in Hitler’s corner.

Roger:  At this time Hitler has taken control of the government, seen to it that those who present a threat in his immediate cabinet were taken care of—THEY’RE GONE! Hitler still had a difficult economy to deal with. He’s in the middle of a Depression and he’s got to rebuild and re-arm. How does he do that?

James: One problem sort of solved the other. As he started to re-arm, it put a lot of people back to work. That tied into Hitler Youth because as they were being trained to put on the uniforms of the reserves of the regular army when they turned 18. They built up a large military reserve. The first military step Hitler took was the re-occupation of the Rhineland.

Roger: Where did he get the money, Jim?

James:  At this stage, most of the money was from contributions he got from the German industrialists. They were borrowing hand to mouth to get the re-armament this far. They were still too poor to go to war. You can put Hitler Youth boys in uniform, you can produce rifles for them; but, it takes a lot of money to buy and produce heavy artillery, tanks, airplanes. They did not have that yet.

In order to get that (money), they had to look someplace else. They had to look at the small countries on their borders. The plan was pretty simple. Attack these countries one by one, overrun them, loot them, steal their gold reserve, use their gold reserves to buy Swedish steel needed to building tanks and artillery, to gradually build up the military machine. This is what he did. Austria was the first small country he over-ran.

Roger:    Did the king of England help Hitler re-arm?

James: At that very crucial early phase of the rearmament, even before he occupied Austria, his first step was into the de-militarized Rhineland. Basically, he was going to fortify the River Rhine because unless he could do that, France could easily cross into Germany at any time. He was vulnerable. When he started to re-occupy the Rhineland, it was a violation of the Treaty of Versailles. France and England would have been justified in sending troops into Germany. They could have easily defeated him at that stage. He wasn’t nearly strong enough. But, the King of England, Edward VIII, intervened with the British government on Hitler’s behalf, to let Hitler go ahead and re-arm the Rhineland. That was a tremendous help he gave to Hitler! Hitler was still vulnerable at that stage.

Roger:  At this point his anti-Semitism becomes pretty blatant, doesn’t it?

James: Very much so!   As soon as the Nazi’s took over in Germany, even before Hindenburg’s death, they started to throw the Jews out of all government jobs and out of the professions. This was done by a goon squad of Nazis that would show up at a town courthouse. They’d go in and physically grab any Jewish judges or lawyers, rip their robes off and throw them out in the street! Just as simple as that!

Roger: You’ve been fired!

James: Exactly! Many Jews started to leave the country, those who could afford to. Some were too patriotic in their German patriotism, they thought it couldn’t get any worse, so a lot of Jews stayed, unfortunately.

Roger: Jim, we’ve got to take a break. Ladies and gentlemen, our guest this evening, for the second week in a row, is James Pool, author of the book, “Hitler and His Secret Partners.”   Just hang with us, we’ve got quite a bit of ground to cover, then we’ll open up for phone calls.


Roger:  We’re back with James Pool! James, as Hitler was re-arming: he’s got an army along the Rhine now, to protect himself from France, doesn’t that spark England and France to re-arm as well?

James: Not to the extent that Germany did. You have to remember, they had never really dis-armed. You have a very large French army, probably at least four times the size of the German army. Britain had a large navy. It’s army was not as big. They really weren’t beginning re-armament yet. Hitler’s first military move was into Austria. There was no armed resistance by the Austrian government. They decided that resistance against Germany would be ridiculous because the Germans outnumbered them.

As soon as German troops rolled into Austria, German bankers and industrialists followed to claim the various properties they wanted. For example, the Rothschild Palace, within the first hours of occupation, was looted by the Nazis who just tore out silver candelabra, paintings, and all things of value. There’s a good account of that in the book William Shirer wrote. He was a great reporter and was right on the scene in Austria when the occupation took place. He watched the Nazis loot the Rothschild Palace. It didn’t just happen to wealthy Jews, it happened to ordinary Jews. The Nazis might roll a truck up outside a delicatessen and loot the place; carry out the big sausages, the big wursts and roll of cheese, just empty the place to four walls!

Some Nazis played a different tactic. For example, where an Austrian Nazi worked in restaurant, they’d just throw the Jewish owner out, install themselves behind the cash register and put up a new sign saying UNDER ARYAN MANAGEMENT! That was it!

Roger:  Who got the loot when they took this stuff?

James:   It was all prearranged because, naturally, if it had been every man for himself as far as the Nazis were concerned, they would have been shooting at each other! My research confirmed this was all prearranged. For example, the big chemical companies went to the German chemical cartel, IG Farben. Krupp, a financier of Hitler got some of the big Austrian steel companies. Dr. Schacht, a banker who supported Hitler in the early days, was one of the first ones in Austria to claim the gold reserve. The Austrians had a nice big gold reserve. He claimed that gold reserve for the German Reichsbank. It was by looting that Austrian gold reserve that Hitler had the new infusion of cash to keep him going; to buy more tanks, more artillery, more planes to set him up for the next phase, the attack on Czechoslovakia.

Czechoslovakia was a key strategic point because France had an alliance with Czechoslovakia and Poland and other eastern European countries. The Czechs were a very industrious people. They had very good industry. Their army was small; but, it was one of the best equipped. Far better equipped than the German army was! They had the newest artillery. Hitler wanted to get those Czech weapons. He wasn’t quite sure he had enough to attack Czechoslovakia itself yet; so he worked the famous Munich Agreement with the British, Neville Chamberlain. Basically, Britain sold out the Czechs! Chamberlain’s excuse was he did it to prevent war. Actually, I believe he had other motives, a deal worked out with some of Hitler’s financiers to turn Czechoslovakia over to Germany. 

Roger:    A lot of the western people that we think would be the folks who would stand firm against the whole concept of Nazism actually helped bring Hitler to greater power!

James:    Definitely! The reason was, especially when we talk about somebody like Chamberlain….. remember, the basic goal of Hitler and his partners, these industrialists, these ultra-nationalists, we to build a great German empire in eastern Europe when the countries of Czechoslovakia, Poland and Russia were. People like Chamberlain thought there would be tremendous business opportunities if Germany was to occupy all those countries. If Britain was in good with the German government and those countries were opened up, it would be like opening up the American West.   When we talk about Chamberlain this brings us to another individual who was influential at that time, Joe Kennedy, who was the United States Ambassador to Britain.

Roger:    Good old Joe!

James:   Joe, for people who don’t remember, was JFK’s father. At that time, John Kennedy was just a kid in college. Joe was the US Ambassador in Britain. People who knew him well knew that he had definite anti-semitic tendencies. His background was as a stock market trader, a stock market manipulator who had put together a lot of famous takeover deals. A lot of people think takeover deals are new; but, Joe Kennedy had been putting them together in Hollywood, one studio taking over another, back in the 1920s. He made contemptuous references to Jewish executives in Hollywood calling them “pants pressers” and things like that because earlier in life they might have worked in the dry cleaning trade. It was known by some people who he had anti-semitic tendencies. When he got to Britain he was definitely pro-Hitler. He was very much anti-communist and thought Hitler was a good defense against communism. He was also, like Chamberlain, looking for new business opportunities with this eastern German empire if Hitler was allowed to expand to the east.

Now, I make a statement in the book that Joe Kennedy bore some responsibility for the holocaust because of something he said to the German Ambassador in Britain. They were at a diplomatic reception, a party, and he said to the German Ambassador….remember, this is when the situation in Germany was they were persecuting the Jews, smashing the windows of Jewish businesses and some perceptive people in the United States were complaining about it…. Joe Kennedy was feeling some heat, so he said to the German ambassador, using the example of a private club in Boston that hadn’t had a Jewish member in 50 years, so he said, “You know, this kind of discrimination against the Jews goes on in the United States, but we do it quietly! You could get rid of the Jews if you just do it quietly don’t make such a fuss about it.”

joe kennedy

Roger:  Oh, Lord! Hold it right there, we’ve got to have a break. Hang with us! We’ll take calls in a little bit!


Roger:  We’re back with James Pool! Last week we learned that Henry Ford, creator of the Ford Motor Company, was involved early on with financing Hitler. Tonight we learn that Camelot, America’s prize royal family, the Kennedy’s, supported Adolf Hitler! This is unbelievable, James! Did Kennedy offer financial support or just moral support?

James:    At this stage, at this party in London, he had told the German diplomat, in effect, ‘you can get rid of the Jews if you just do it quietly.’   I think what Kennedy meant by this was discrimination against the Jews in business, kicking them out of various professions, maybe even expelling them from the country. But, the diplomat immediately wired this back to Berlin! The next morning, Hitler’s morning routine was, first of all, his attaches brought him the major news stories that happened overnight and the major diplomatic wires that came in. They filtered through them at first, but he always wanted to see everything that had to do with the Jews or anti-Semitism and anything to do with major powers. So this statement by Kennedy who was from an ambassador of a major power, the United States, and it had to do with the Jews so it was one of the first things across Hitler’s desk the next day! When Hitler saw this: YOU CAN GET RID OF THE JEWS IF YOU JUST DO IT QUIETLY— in his mind, he’d been planning to get rid of the Jews— he wasn’t thinking of kicking them out of the country, he was thinking of exterminating them!

Roger:  He saw this as an endorsement!

James:   Exactly! “Kill the Jews if you just do it quietly!” Sure enough, when the holocaust was actually put into effect, they put up those concentration camps in remote locations in Poland and eastern Europe where nobody actually saw what was happening. They shipped the Jews out to, in effect, kill them quietly.

Roger: You also mentioned Charles Lindbergh in your book. How is he connected with all this?

James:   At the time of the so-called Munich Conference, when Chamberlain sold out the Czechs, Lindbergh had been touring Europe and he was very impressed by the German Air Force. Like Kennedy, he had anti-semitic tendencies. He had a lot of admiration for the Nazi Luftwaffe. He and Kennedy conspired together. Lindbergh wrote up some kind of document saying that in any struggle, the German Air Force would defeat the British Air Force easily. Kennedy gave this to Chamberlain before the Munich Conference and Chamberlain used it as an excuse to sell out the Czechs. In other words, Britain isn’t strong enough for war yet so we’ll let Hitler go ahead and have Czechoslovakia.

Roger: Wow! These are folk heroes! These are American folk heroes! Joseph Kennedy, the Irishman with the whiskey brogue! Charles Lindbergh! He’s one of the greatest aerial heroes! For people who are into flying, they have his picture on their wall!

James:    Like Henry Ford, Lindbergh was very brilliant in his field as far as flying was concerned; but, when he got into politics, he was just out of his depth, so he fell for some of the Jewish conspiracy stuff! If there’s any doubt about it, later on he started the America First Party, supposed to keep America out of war; but basically, he didn’t want to go to war with Germany. Some place out in the midwest, I think it was Des Moines, he gave a very anti-semitic kind of speech in which he said that the Jews were trying to drag us into war. Then there was no more doubt about Lindbergh’s anti-Semitism.


Roger: What were some of the other big names involved in financing Adolf Hitler?

James: At that stage, the big German companies had something called The Adolf Hitler Fund. That started shortly after Hitler became Chancellor. Gustav Krupp, the great steel man, was appointed head of The Adolf Hitler Fund. He wrote a letter to a lot of other powerful German industrialists saying, “Whoever helps quickly, helps doubly” in order to solicit funds for Hitler.

Roger: What did these people get in return for the money they gave Hitler?

James: In the first stage in Germany, they got the confiscated Jewish property. The little Nazi got the job of the Jewish school teacher who was thrown out of his position. The big Nazi like Gustav Krupp, would get a steel factory that was confiscated from wealthier Jews. These were the sort of rewards that were handed out at first. Then when he invaded Austria, they kept dividing up more Jewish property among the people who had financed him.

When he over-ran Czechoslovakia, it was looting the gold reserve and all the weapons of the Czech army. After the looting of Czechoslovakia they were almost strong enough to go to war with France!

There were stories from reporters on the scene who said after the Germans over-ran Czechoslovakia, for about the next month or two, every night there were just rows after rows of German trucks full of Czech valuables, raw materials, taking them over the border into Germany. Every night! 

Roger: We’ll be back with James Pool to continue this discussion after the break. Please stay tuned.


Roger:    Welcome back to the program! I’m Roger Fredinburg, radio’s regular guy! We are in week 3 in our 20 week series, The Holocaust: We Must Remember. For the second week, James Pool is with us discussing his second book, “Hitler and His Secret Partners: Contributions, Loot and Rewards: 1933-1945”   So far we have talked about Hitler becoming the Chancellor, some of the power struggles, the lack of funds. Then, of course, the sudden discovery of those monies, and who helped finance him.

Interestingly, Joseph Kennedy, in London as our Ambassador from the United States, sort of encouraged Hitler to get rid of the Jews! This is very powerful! Charles Lindbergh, another American folk hero, was also very supportive of Hitler’s military, his Air Force, and helped to establish that Chamberlain would not try to stop the Germans from taking over Czechoslovakia!

Jim, we need pick up the pace a bit so we can get some phone calls in. I’d like to get right up to the things that happened leading up to the actual holocaust, the genocide that became part of the whole Nazi movement!

James: We’re right at that point now. Once he over-ran the three small countries; Austria, Czechoslovakia and when he attacked Poland, that was the war! When war began, the holocaust was put into operation. In Nazi terminology, the code words were “the final solution to the Jewish question.” When they moved east they started rounding up the Jews in Poland put them into ghettos.   After they conquered Poland, they turned around, invaded and conquered France. After looting France, they turned their attention to the invasion of Russia.

Their plan for this great empire in the east was to move German settlers in. But, if the countryside is already crowded, you can’t move settlers in so they wanted to combine that with the final solution to the Jewish question. Behind the army came the SS, that literally take Jews out of the villages, march them through the countryside, force them to dig a trench, line them up and shoot them and push them in the trench! Hundreds of thousands of people were just murdered on the spot this way!

Roger: Oh, Lord!

James:  This was one of the most gruesome aspects of the holocaust! Men, women and children were just butchered! The Russian Communists bear a little bit of the responsibility because they knew through their military intelligence this was going on; but, they didn’t warn the Jews. If they had warned them, they could even have given them rifles so they could disperse into the woods to defend themselves; but, no…. they didn’t! They were only concerned with protecting Russians because there was a certain amount of anti-Semitism among the Communists, too!

Hitler had a problem! In remote areas of eastern Europe, in Russia, he could just butcher Jews on the roadside. He couldn’t do that in France, Holland and Belgium, the countries of western Europe. So, he decided to build these great concentration camps in the east, like Auschwitz in Poland, ship the Jews by rail from France to Poland to exterminate them at the concentration camps.   However, there was a very valuable resource here they did not want to affect; to use those Jews who were physically to work as slave laborers because the pro-Nazi German industrialists saw great opportunity here! They could have Jewish slave laborers working for just a few pennies a day. This is where you have that partnership, and you have the responsibility of certain companies and certain German industrialists in the holocaust, because after arresting the Jews, the SS would sell them as slave labor to the industrialists and companies! Some of those companies actually built factories at the concentration camps like Auschwitz! The SS told the industrialists, ‘you can work them for as long as you want—24 hours a day for all we care’. So a lot of that responsibility falls on the heads of those industrialists who did work those Jews 18 hours a day— worked them to death! In fact, there was a phrase used among Nazi industrialists, “Extermination through Work.”   Work them until they could work no longer, then ship them over to the gas chamber, the ovens, where they could be exterminated.

Roger: Oh, boy! So across eastern Europe you had continuation of the SS roadside killings, marching people into the woods and killing them! By this time, the wars is in full flow; you’ve got problems with supplies, you’ve got hunger, you’ve got disease, you’ve got all kinds of problems now! How did Hitler deal with that?

James:    As far as murdering the Jews on the roadsides in Russia (shoving them into a ditch), they did this while they were at the height of their power, closing in on Moscow, almost to Stalingrad! The war was really going well for them! In fact, they were worried that a German victory would come before they had exterminated all the Jews! The reason they worried about that was because once the war was over and people and reporters from neutral countries would be able to travel freely, they couldn’t keep butchering people because of the bad effect on international relations. They wanted to hurry up and exterminate all the Jews before the war was over! Fortunately, Russia proved to be a harder nut to crack than Hitler had bargained on! The war didn’t go so well!

Roger:   After Stalingrad?

James:  Yes. After Stalingrad things started going downhill. There was a shortage of food, so the rule was : Germans eat first, other people eat afterwards! In places like the Ukraine, a very fertile area, all the food crops were shipped to Germany while the Ukrainians had to sit starving, watching the railroad cars loaded up with Ukrainian wheat and agricultural supplies with names of German cities written in white on each railroad car: Cologne, Berlin, Munich. This is where their food was going while they starved!

In the concentration camps, the Jews worked as slave laborers, the ones that could. Of course, the poor children and older people were gassed immediately! The industrials took advantage of this cheap labor and profited enormously!

Roger: Jim, you are not a Jew?

James: No, I’m not.

Roger:  You’ve studied this issue for 25 years.

James:  Yes.

Roger:  What I hear coming the mouths of ‘good Americans’ all over this country is, ” The holocaust didn’t really happen. There weren’t even 6,000,000 Jews in Europe! This is a hoax! This is part of the Jewish Conspiracy!”   Do you find any evidence of that in your 25 years of research? And if there’s not, where does this stuff come from?

James:   Where it comes from is, even as the Nazis were being defeated, Hitler and Dr Goebbels, the Minister of Propaganda, were planning how the Nazis would polish their image post-war. They were already thinking about it then! They were destroying any documents that would implicate them in the holocaust. As soon as the war was over, neo-Nazis put their propaganda into motion to deny that the holocaust ever happened.

For me, the most convincing thing was that someone who I knew, an American GI (who is not Jewish), was one of the first ones that arrived at Dachau as an 18-year old GI. He described the pitiful state, bodies lying around… rotting corpses! This is a guy I know personally! He’s not part of some propaganda conspiracy or anything! That kind of thing really brings it home to you. Then when you start to look at the documents you see there’s just no doubt about this! There’s no doubt about the numbers.

Roger: But, was the propaganda machine so potent, so powerful, that 50 years later in America in the 1990s, people are still caught up in it?

James: Oh, sure! The neo-Nazis are a powerful force! They have a few historians in their camp and they represent a powerful interest group. They churn this stuff out and they have considerable funds in their resources.resources

Roger: All right, James, I’m going to open up the phone lines soon to let folks ask some questions! Are you ready for that? We’ll take calls right after the break!

Roger: We’re back, ladies and gentlemen! We’re with James Pool! His book is, “Hitler and His Secret Partners: Contribution, Loot and Rewards: 1933-1945” I guess the big ones here were the industrialists, eh, James?

James: They certainly were!

Roger: Let’s take some phone calls. We’ve got Marie in Medford, Oregon on the line! 

Caller-Marie: Hi, Roger! I’m enjoying your guest! He left out a few people who supported the Nazis. (unintelligible sentence) A lot of people in England supported Nazism. A lot of people in the United States, aside from those he mentioned. There are still people in the United States….

Roger: Who are some of those people in the United States? Can you name them? 

Caller – Marie:  The Duke of Windsor. I think a good number of your calls (last week?) of laypeople, people on the fringe who write books and the people who read this trash! I call them “aNGLOphiles” ! They totally deny the 12 Tribes of Jews! Roger, you’ve gotten calls like that before. I’m sure there’s some big guns somewhere. I’ve read that even President Roosevelt knew what was going on. Could he have stopped it? I don’t know! I’m an ex-Catholic and I know the Roman church knew what was going on! Could they have stopped it? I don’t know! 

James:  I think you’re right, Marie! There were a lot of people that I haven’t mentioned on a one hour program. I think you’ll find a lot of that in the book. There’s certainly no question that the Vatican knew this was going on. The Vatican even signed The Concordat, the treaty with Nazi Germany, basically saying if Hitler didn’t touch the Catholic schools, the Catholic church would go along.   Of course, the Duke and Duchess of Windsor….

Caller-Marie: What about our president and some of this staff knowing it was going on? Surely his intelligence was good. I am not saying he could have done anything about it.

Roger: I think the American people was the reason. We did not want to get into the war. if I remember correctly.

James: She’s right to a certain extent about Franklin Roosevelt. There’s a story in the book about a very tragic incident, the refugee ship called the Saint Louis. The ship was full of refugees fleeing Nazi Germany, trying to be admitted into the United States and President Roosevelt turned his back on them because of political pressure from anti-semitic groups in the United States. He was afraid to challenge that!

Caller-Marie:   Also, keep in mind Roger, and you’re much younger than I am, that Roosevelt’s name “sounded Jewish” to some people and he lost votes because they thought he was Jewish!

Roger:  Okay, Marie, thank you! Gerhardt, of Oakland, California, you’re on the radio!

Caller Gerhardt:    There’s really no end to historical reconstruction we can all do. To look back on what Hitler was doing before the war and say, “why didn’t anybody step in and do something?” That’s like trying to say today, “Why didn’t we send our troops in to stop the Hutus and the Tutsis from chopping each other up?” It’s none of our business! Sure, it was nasty! Sure, it was rotten– no good! But, that’s no pretext on which to launch an international military expedition.

Another thing that bothers me about this. We automatically hit the number 6,000,000 when we talk about Hitler. It’s been pounded into our brains from age two!

  1. He killed 12,000,000 in the concentration camps and they weren’t all Jews!
  1. The Madison Avenue-ization of the Jewish persecution.Yet, nobody looks at the 26-28 million Russians that were killed. 

Roger: Gerhardt, I have to interject here. First of all, the Jews were specifically targeted for genocide. Stalin just killed people who disagreed with his agenda! Hitler was not out to exterminate all Russians, he was out to exterminate the Jews. His primary focus was to commit genocide against the Jews! He wanted to rid the world of the Jews!

Caller-Gerhardt: And Slavs… Jews and Slavs! This is the part you leave out!

James:   There certainly were many Slavs killed and their deaths number in millions…

Caller-Gerhardt: …many more millions than Jews, also… yet, nobody calls this a holocaust with a Capital H.

James: In fact, a lot of the Slavs who died were Russian soldiers who were imprisoned and certainly mistreated.

Caller-Gerhardt:  Most were civilians!

James: Many Russian civilians died during the war; but, you see, that’s a slightly different situation. They weren’t singled out for extermination!

Caller-Gerhardt: Oh, sir, you don’t know what you’re talking about! You’re a complete fool!

Roger: I’m not going to let you talk to my guest like that! You can’t get into name-calling because, first of all, James has studied this issue for 25 years! To call a man who has written two wonderful books “a fool” is not going to be allowed on this program! To disagree with him is fine. But, I’m not putting up with name-calling! Tom, in Tampa, Florida, you’re on the radio!

Caller-Tom:   Yes, sir! My question is similar; but somewhat different from the prior caller. Please don’t interpret this as anti-semitic or to lessen or mitigate anything that happened to the Jews because I think it was obviously direct genocide! There’s no doubt about that!

Roger: Tom, I’ve just received a signal that I’m headed into a break. If you could just hold on, we’ll be back!


Roger:     Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen! James Pool is our guest. We’re talking about his second book , “Hitler and His Secret Partners, Contributions, Loot and Rewards: 1933-1945.” Last week we talked about his other book, “Who Financed Hitler: The Secret Funding of Hitler’s Rise to Power: 1919-1933

Next week we’ll have Dr. Dorit Bader-Whiteman as our guest to talk about her book, “The Uprooted.” Boy, it’ll be a real fascinating week!     We’ll be continuing the series for about 17 more weeks and I’m hoping that at that time, many of the questions you have had over the years will be answered. Hopefully, some of you who have been indoctrinated with what I call “craziness”, this disinformation, this propaganda, will begin to clearly see what really went on. That’s my hope! I hope you’re paying close attention and you’ll try to be objective.

James, welcome back! We’ve got Tom in Tampa, Florida waiting. But, first let me ask, how do people get your book?

James: Yes, the big chain bookstores have it!

Roger: All right! Hello, Tom in Tampa!

Caller-Tom: My question is to James. This is in no way meant to denigrate or mitigate…. I certainly think the extermination of 6,000,000 Jews as a race was the clear intent of the German hierarchy. Were there any other groups such as the gypsies or anybody else also targeted? This is just to get a perspective on the real magnitude of the mindset of the Nazis. That’s the reason I ask this question. I’m 54 years old. I was born in 1943 so I am not at all what happened during that time.

I have tried to study it in the past been haven’t had much time to devote to it. You’ve had a great deal of time!   We’re any other groups targeted?

James: You’re right, Tom! The other group targeted for extermination was the Gypsies. This didn’t happen as early as the plan to exterminate the Jews. At first, the Gypsies were rounded up and put in concentration camps; but, they got much better treatment than the Jews. For example, they were allowed to live in family groups. The Jews were separate: women to one place, children and old people to another place to be exterminated.

The Commandant of one of the concentration camps, I think it was Auschwitz, used to go to the Gypsy section and there was a Gypsy orchestra to play music for him! The Nazis hadn’t realy cranked up the propaganda against the Gypsies as much as they had the Jews, so when the orders came down for the Gypsies to be exterminated in the concentration camps, some of these commandants were a bit reluctant; but, they went ahead, of course.

Caller-Tom:  Why, the Gypsies? I mean, how does that tie in with their world view or where they wanted to go? I’m trying to elucidate, what was motivating them? We know, in some regards, why they exterminated the Jews; but, why target another group of people who were relative innocuous?

James:    That’s a very good questions because, in Nazi terminology, Gypsies were considered “useless eaters.”

Caller-Tom: Parasites!

James:    Not just that; but, there was a shortage of food during the war. In the book, I certainly do not neglect the suffering of the Polish people and the Russian people. They suffered miserably and were treated brutally. But, the Jews were treated worse!

There’s a good example in the book! When the Nazis first came into Poland, they put the Jews in ghettos before they put them into concentration camps. The first thing they did was ration the use of food. A German was entitled to buy approximately 2,000 calories of food a day. A Pole was only allowed 500 calories a day. A Jews was allowed 200 calories.

Tom: My God!

James: You know, a Pole might be able to stay alive on 500 calories, especially if he could cheat a little bit and get something from a farmer or somebody else. But, 200 calories, it’s definite what they were intending to do!

Caller-Tom:   Right! And they were restricted to the ghettos so they had no opportunity to go out and dicker with anybody else to obtain anything!

James: Exactly! We don’t realize the shortage of food that existed. One of the big things that really defeated Hitler, something not many people talk about, is the British naval blockade. The British Navy put a steel ring around Europe and food supplies couldn’t get in! So, the Germans only had what they could grow in Europe and what was in Russia! There was a huge food shortage. That’s why people like the Gypsies were singled out.

Roger: That was one of Hitler’s motivations to take over territory, too. Because there wasn’t enough territory in Germany-proper to feed the Germans!

Caller-Tom: That’s what I was going to say, too! Isn’t that the reason he attacked Russia?

James: You’re right Tom! There were two reasons he attacked Russia! It can be summed up in two words… FOOD and OIL! The Ukraine was the richest agricultural area in Europe… to get the grain and crops from the Ukraine and to get the oil from Baku…that was the real reason behind the attack on Russia!

Roger: Tom, thank you very much for your call! Barbara in Central Point, Oregon!

Caller-Barbara:  Good evening, Roger! The gentlemen before me talked about the Gypsies. Also, the Jewish people in Warsaw did the “turning around” or changing of the Jewish nature. In Germany they’d just stand there and be mowed down! In Poland, and especially Warsaw, they started fighting back! They started fighting! I nursed with one of the girls who was in the Warsaw Ghetto. She told us a lot of stories about it. People can not deny the Holocaust. I don’t know if there’s any film left; but, during that time we had the March of Time (newsreel). It showed pictures—they were stacked like kindling! At the end of the war when they were found, they looked like stick figures! It was the most pathetic thing you ever saw! A lot of the boys over there in military prison camps were starving. One of the guys I went to school with said he would dream of food at night.

Roger:  Barbara, in this series we’re going to be talking to a number of survivors and resistors. You’re going to hear some of the horrific stories, what it was like inside those camps.

Caller-Barbara: I’ve heard a lot already. When the war first started, Hitler didn’t appear to be a mad man like he did later on. He was so charismatic! We’d listen to him on the radio here in the United States in the 1930s and just drew you to him!

Roger:   He had that cadence when he spoke!

Caller-Barbara:   Oh, definitely! And, we had a lot of first and second generation Germans here in the United States that had brothers and sisters and grandparents over in Germany. It was during the Depression and things got better when Hitler got in there. There was never hatred for the Germans, even when we were fighting them, not like there was towards the Japanese! It was a totally different feeling! There were German prisoners out here at Camp White. They’d be let out and work in the orchards with us high schoolers! Those of us that could speak German would talk with them. The Japanese were in a high security pen with guard towers! The Italians were kind of sulky and didn’t respond much; but, the Germans worked in the sawmills and out on the farms. There would be one guard over a whole bunch of them working!

Roger: Barbara, thank you very much! Brian, in Springfield, Illinois, you’re on the radio!

Caller-Brian: Hello, Mr. Pool!

James: Hello!

Caller-Brian:  I heard there was talk at one time in the 1930s of a British-German Union, that the British League of Fascists came close to getting into power.

James: Yes! There was a party called the British Union of Fascists led by Sir Oswald Mosley. He was one of the people I interviewed in researching this book. He was very friendly with Hitler.

Caller-Brian: If the British Union of Fascists had come to power and Britain and Germany joined forces, would that have made Germany and Hitler stronger?

James: Definitely!

Roger:   You’d be speaking German today, Brian!

James: Yes!

Caller-Brian:   How were the blacks treated in Germany?

James: Actually, there were very few black people in Germany.

Caller-Brian:  How were other blacks in Europe treated under Hitler’s regime? Were they gassed?

James:  No, not that I know of! There was no program to do so.

Caller- Brian: What did Hitler think of black people?

James:   He thought they were inferior. He used various derogatory words to describe them that we don’t need to mention on the air.

Roger: We’ve got to take a break, gentlemen. Do you have another question, Brian? Hang on just a second!


Roger:  All right! We’re back with James Pool. You can get either of his books by just asking at your bookstore! Brian, let’s hurry along! I’ve got to give as many callers a chance as I can.

Caller-Brian: Okay! James, how did Hitler view his allies like the Japanese? Did he look at them as equal to the Germans?

James: Certainly not! Officially, as far as their propaganda was concerned, they did. But, Hitler had a very ambivalent attitude toward the Japanese.

Caller-Brian: Didn’t he try to get the Japanese to invade Russia with him, at the same time?

James: If he had done that, he probably would have won the war!

Caller-Brian: He probably would have defeated Russia with Japanese help?

James: Yes. Because of this racist attitude he had toward the Japanese, he recognized that they were great warriors; but, he considered them racial inferiors. He didn’t want to share Russia with them.

Caller-Brian:   If Hitler would have invaded Russia with the Japanese coming in from the Siberian side and the Germans coming from the European side, would that have forced Stalin to fight a two front war?

James: It certainly would! And it probably would have led to Russia’s defeat.

Caller-Brian: Do you think Hitler and the Japanese would have fought sooner or later?

James:   Thieves and criminals always fall out in the end!

Roger:   Brian, thank you very much!   Doc in Roseburg, Oregon, you’re on the radio!

Caller-Doc: Good evening, Roger! This is certainly an astonishing program! You are the best thing Oregon has going for it! Now, to give two examples of how it is known that the holocaust happened: my grandfather and great-grandfather left small trusts in the early 1900s to Jewish communities in White Russia, the very far western area of Russia near Poland. They left trusts for friends, people of the same religion in Russia. These trusts were administered by two different banks in Connecticut. Both trusts were returned to the heirs, in other words, to our family after WW II because the banks were unable to find anyone to give the money to—- the communities no longer existed! I have a Key to the City of one of these communities gave to my grandfather in 1902. I have the Key to that City in my hand! It was originally presented in 1902 and reaffirmed in 1928.

Something that should never be forgotten is there was another genocide that the Germans were extremely implicated in during WW I. The German were allies of the Turks. Germans were their suppliers and trained their officers!   In 1914-1915, the Turks killed–murdered a half million Armenians! This is extremely well documented.

There’s something Armenians, Jews and Gypsies have in common. They are all extreme individualists! They’re individualists for different reasons; Armenians for nationalist reasons, Gypsies for cultural reasons, and Jews for religious reasons.   The reason Jews are individualist is because an individual Jew’s first relationship is with God! It’s not with a government, not with a political party, not with a state, it’s with God!   That’s where his first allegiance would always be! Of course, that makes him very unpopular when there’s totalitarian political forces.

On another issue, Roger, just today is the first day I had to withdraw my child from the government schools in Oregon because the Outcome-Based Education is another attempt at totalitarian government!

Roger:  Yes, it is! It’s happening right now. You follow this series for the next 20 weeks …..

Caller-Doc:   I’ll be here! You’re going to win an award for this series, Roger!

Roger:   Thank you, Doc! We’re trying to squeeze in another caller. Hello, Brenda from Grants Pass, Oregon!

Caller-Brenda: Good evening! I was remembering what you were saying earlier about the recruitment of the younger people. It reminded me of a very good movie that depicts this sort of thing, when Hitler was taking over the youth in Poland. The name of the movie is “Swing Kids”. I thought maybe I’d bring that up.

Roger:  People should rent that movie, it’s incredible!   We’ll try to squeeze in Sol from Eugene, Oregon real quick!

Caller-Sol: I just had two quick questions. Do you know anything about the connection between Standard Oil, Prescott Bush, Harriman and Associates, some of the shipping firms that were profiteering off the war and the hearings held after the war pertaining to Wall Street connections? Also, the connection between the eugenics movement with the Nazis and their American and other worldly affiliates?

Roger: James, you’ve got 10 seconds to answer that question! I’m sorry.

James: There were a lot of people and big American companies that invested in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. That’s different from actually financing Hitler. In the end, a lot of these people actually lost money and their investment. Some people confuse the two and think that if somebody on Wall Street invested in Germany in the 1930s, which was perfectly legal to do, that they financed Hitler. That’s really not the case!

Roger:  Their object was to make money. There’s nothing wrong with that in a capitalist society! James, I appreciate having you as a guest, my friend! I’ve enjoyed the two weeks! It’s been an incredible time.

James: I’ve enjoyed it, Roger! Thank you so much and thank you listeners!

Roger: Folks, we’ve got another part of this series coming up every Wednesday! God bless you all and God Bless America! Good night, everyone!

(Transcription is from MP3 file converted from original cassette with minimal editing by Chey Simonton.

Errors, if any, may be due to unintelligible sections of original 1997 audio technology. Unknown/unintelligible words are spelled phonetically.)